tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post4505903794484623850..comments2024-01-24T04:02:06.466-05:00Comments on Why I De-Converted from Evangelical Christianity: James McGrath on "What's Wrong with Penal Substitution"Ken Pulliamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12161943466797514854noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-55935085717151840392010-06-05T08:11:25.791-04:002010-06-05T08:11:25.791-04:00Mike, what are you feeling were some of the bigges...Mike, what are you feeling were some of the biggest influences in your moving away from Christian faith over time?Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17018475588969974790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-6827094670093774802010-06-05T01:42:48.866-04:002010-06-05T01:42:48.866-04:00Grace, Yes I do. For just over 10 years, I was a ...Grace, Yes I do. For just over 10 years, I was a hard-core evangelical/fundamentalist Christian, and was involved in a several churches during that time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-83975883536720205522010-06-04T19:15:59.035-04:002010-06-04T19:15:59.035-04:00Well, it's true that we can't empirically ...Well, it's true that we can't empirically prove God in a test tube, that's for sure, but I don't think Christian faith is a totally irrational leap in the dark, either.<br /><br />Mike, do you come from some type of churched background?Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17018475588969974790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-48811277392997742632010-06-02T23:01:23.094-04:002010-06-02T23:01:23.094-04:00Grace, you're right. All religions can't b...Grace, you're right. All religions can't be true, but they certainly can all be false, which I suspect they are. Notice I said suspect, and I did not say that I know this for sure. After all, we are talking about the super natural, right? Everything has to be taken by faith.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-55232419191255463622010-06-01T18:50:23.095-04:002010-06-01T18:50:23.095-04:00Yes, Mike, I agree. Although, I do think that subj...Yes, Mike, I agree. Although, I do think that subjective experience is one factor to consider, along with many other variables.<br /><br />But, in a deeper sense, what I meant to share is that as a Christian believer, I don't feel that I can rule out the various ways, and means that God might choose to impact someone's life.<br /><br />I've known Christian people to share how that an experience with Wicca led them to a greater appreciation of the natural world which drew them to God, and finally to Christ.<br /><br />I believe that God's most complete revelation is in Christ, and that ultimately all "salvation" so to speak is in, and through the cross. Obviously, all contradictory belief systems cannot be equally true.<br /><br />But, this doesn't mean, to me anyway, that no truth at all can be found in other faith systems, and philosophies.<br /><br />How can we limit God? If He wants to show up in the middle of a Buddhist temple, or while someone is reading portions of the Qur'an, He can do it.Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17018475588969974790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-45039219196363276222010-06-01T06:01:24.180-04:002010-06-01T06:01:24.180-04:00Grandverbalizer,
I think the best approach is to ...Grandverbalizer,<br /><br />I think the best approach is to read all of the posts under the label Atonement. I provide references and links to the resource material. <br /><br />Christendom has never agreed on one particular theory of the atonement. The Classic Theory or Ransom Theory was widely held for the first 1000 years of Church History (the Eastern Orthodox hold a variation of this theory). Then Anselm wrote his book, Cur Deus Homo, advocating the Satisfaction Theory and that became dominant. Later Peter Abelard developed the Moral Exemplar Theory. These last two theories are the most prevalent within the Roman Catholic Church, with conservatives holding Anselm's theory and progressives holding Abelard's. <br /><br />The Reformers modified Anselm's theory into the PST. This has been the dominant theory among conservative Protestants, especially the Reformed or Calvinistic branches.<br /><br />Hugo Grotius developed the Governmental Theory in the 1600's which became the dominant view among non-Calvinists.<br /><br />In the last 100 years there have been other theories developed as well. <br /><br />There is a lot of ground to cover! You can find a basic definition of each of these theories on Wikipedia.Ken Pulliamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12161943466797514854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-21905027674252229332010-06-01T04:49:16.541-04:002010-06-01T04:49:16.541-04:00@thegrandverbalizer - Ken's blog is the very b...@thegrandverbalizer - Ken's blog is the very best resource on PST that I know of today (and on theories of atonement in general). Hopefully he will write a book some day, but I encourage you to read all of the posts, and take the time to investigate the resources he discusses. Ken discusses the "within Church" differences, and *some* arguments from Judaism and Philosophy have been discussed in passing.<br /><br />FWIW, I've read Maududi, Hassan al Banna, Qutb, and other Muslim theologians; as well as reading Quran a few times through. I have my own opinions about the relation of Islam to the issues that Ken focuses on, but my knowledge of Islam is very limited. IMO, it would be edifying (for me, at least) if you can remain engaged and regularly comment on your understanding of Islamic theology pertaining to the matters that Ken discusses.JSAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00681934865643964687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-91760977797465989072010-06-01T00:03:33.927-04:002010-06-01T00:03:33.927-04:00With the name of God, I am interested to know abou...With the name of God, I am interested to know about more articles and or books that deal with the issue of PST.<br /><br />Has it been challenged 'with in' the Church and what are the extra biblical and extra Church challenges from Judaism and or Philosophical arguments against it.<br /><br />I myself am a Muslim but I want to try and see this particular issue which is of interest to me from all possible angles.<br /><br />Very excellent blog and I will try and make it a point to read more of the material here.thegrandverbalizer19https://www.blogger.com/profile/15600393095781979367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-72160133724891738362010-05-31T23:46:28.186-04:002010-05-31T23:46:28.186-04:00That's fine, Grace. Just know that subjective...That's fine, Grace. Just know that subjective experience cannot be proof that something is true. If so, every religion is true.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-45276826265942845472010-05-31T19:11:41.592-04:002010-05-31T19:11:41.592-04:00Thank you, Andre. You too!
Mike, I"m not ab...Thank you, Andre. You too!<br /><br />Mike, I"m not able to speak for these other people, or personally evaluate their faith statements.<br /><br />I can only share from my own conviction, study, and experience. <br /><br />I'll leave the rest to God.Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17018475588969974790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-65779948236983565782010-05-31T09:34:05.428-04:002010-05-31T09:34:05.428-04:00Grace, you do realize that Mormons, Muslims and th...Grace, you do realize that Mormons, Muslims and those of other religoins, worldviews etc. say basically the same thing you do about how their life has changed, right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-47271122565552353422010-05-31T07:34:28.432-04:002010-05-31T07:34:28.432-04:00Oh yes, I do understand. I've been there, I...Oh yes, I do understand. I've been there, I've used those exact same words. <br /><br />Good luck with the journey.Lazarushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11002628037154288374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-83578232127802279942010-05-31T07:15:42.249-04:002010-05-31T07:15:42.249-04:00As a young person, I was agnostic, and very ration...As a young person, I was agnostic, and very rationally, and scientifically inclined, looking for truth. Still am, to a great extent, and don't think we should check our mind at the church door, by any means.<br /><br />Andre, I can only say that God showed up in my life. I mean this metaphorically, of course. I came to see, for me, the limit, and finiteness of human reason. By reason alone, we can't know God.<br /><br />I mostly came to theism by reflection, and study of the natural world,(the witness of creation) and Christian faith by a conviction of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.<br /><br />I can say that knowing Christ makes a difference, because over time, I've seen this experientally in my own life. He is changing(saving) me.<br /><br /> I've become less judgmental, and inclusive toward people who are different, more sensitive, and concerned for the creation. <br /><br />It's like a mini taste of how God is "reconciling the world to Himself," in me. <br /><br />Also, have a lonnnng...way to go. :)<br /><br />Can you understand?Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17018475588969974790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-46790993867869155072010-05-31T02:06:21.665-04:002010-05-31T02:06:21.665-04:00Hi Grace
I used to be a Christian myself, and al...Hi Grace <br /><br />I used to be a Christian myself, and all of what you are saying used to make sense to me. Until I really started asking myself what lies behind the words, the real meaning beyond the cliches and plattitudes.<br /><br />What does it really mean when we say "... that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself"? Or that God "... absorbed the consequence of sin"? <br /><br />Why does it seemingly assure you and comfort you to say things like "Our lives are hidden in Christ with God"?<br /><br />I know that you admit that you do not have all the answers, and I appreciate your candour, but I fail to see how the above examples can really be sufficient to form the basis, the essence, of one's worldview. As I say, I used to cling to those same "answers" but once I looked at them without my "Jesus lenses" they became completely empty.<br /><br />How do you manage to hold on to them?Lazarushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11002628037154288374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-81435623626988599642010-05-30T20:53:29.268-04:002010-05-30T20:53:29.268-04:00It seems to me that any theory, or analogy the chu...It seems to me that any theory, or analogy the church has used to explain God's work in Christ will always seem crude, and fall short of the reality itself.<br /><br />As a Christian, I affirm that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. It was God who fully entered into human life, and suffering, absorbed the consequence of sin, and evil into Himself, so that we might share in His life.<br /><br />However, I certainly can't fully understand, or explain the precise mechanics of all this in human terms. I lean more toward the view popular in Celtic interpretations of Christianity that stresses our unity in Christ. In a mystical sense, we share in His death, and resurrection, and are being made "like Him." <br /><br />Our lives are hidden in Christ with God. <br /><br />But, it does seem pretty fruitless to me to argue with other Christian people about this, or suppose that everyone has to fully agree.<br /><br />God in Christ has saved me, and is redeeming the whole creation. I think that's all I need to know for now.Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17018475588969974790noreply@blogger.com