tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post4915445552787241903..comments2024-01-24T04:02:06.466-05:00Comments on Why I De-Converted from Evangelical Christianity: Are the Killing of Innocents in the OT just a concern for Moderns?Ken Pulliamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12161943466797514854noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-1810302902886763472010-06-15T05:23:32.207-04:002010-06-15T05:23:32.207-04:00DC Griff,
My goal is much more modest. It is to s...DC Griff,<br /><br />My goal is much more modest. It is to simply describe and discuss my reasons for leaving the faith. I invite discussion and dialogue. For many though it is just too emotionally troubling to seriously look at their belief system.Ken Pulliamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12161943466797514854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-32063972593119276192010-06-14T22:29:55.047-04:002010-06-14T22:29:55.047-04:00The kingdom of God has appeared in the ministry of...The kingdom of God has appeared in the ministry of Jesus. The offer of pardon exists now for any who read this blog to receive the gift of eternal life through God's gracious offer. The powers of the age to come have broken into the world. Peace and joy. Grace and forgiveness. Healing and mercy and compassion are freely yours in Jesus. But God's kingdom will come in fulness one day. Now is the day of salvation. Now is the offer made. Repent and believe the good news and you will taste and see that the Lord is good. You can then have the discerment to know the certainty of what I say. Billions have and receiving this offer. Today if you hear his voice, do not harden your heart. Open up your heart. Ask, seek and knock. You will ne answered. God's kingdom will be found. The door will be opened to you.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03838145378973133704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-20518739357541971052010-06-14T22:19:45.656-04:002010-06-14T22:19:45.656-04:00So your intent is ultimately to destroy the myth o...So your intent is ultimately to destroy the myth of Christianity, thus allowing the world to be free from the tyranny of this oppressive religion, while perhaps showing the light to a few of us deluded ones so that we might be rescued to what? The hopelessness of believing that there is no justice now, nor will there ever be? The hopelessness of not believing that our grievous sins might be pardoned? The present experience of one who cannot even classify the condition of his own theological system (theistic agnosticism?). <br /><br />Show me something better. I wouldn't wish the hopelessness that you offer on my worst enemy.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03838145378973133704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-31330967254949939812010-06-14T19:08:48.474-04:002010-06-14T19:08:48.474-04:00DC Griff,
The fact is that evangelicals believe i...DC Griff,<br /><br />The fact is that evangelicals believe it happened and they believe Yahweh commanded it. My point is that counts against the truth of evangelical Christianity.<br /><br />If evangelicals were to say that these events didn't happen and that the commands were merely invented by later Israelites but were never really commanded by Yahweh (as liberals hold), then I would have no argument.Ken Pulliamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12161943466797514854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-29087571359888747822010-06-14T19:03:00.559-04:002010-06-14T19:03:00.559-04:00Since there is no God, He didn't actually orde...<i>Since there is no God, He didn't actually order any such killings. And since the "biblical" record of such atrocities happening is just the inaccurate invention of people anyway, maybe you're actually all worked up over nothing! There was no conquest. There were no atrocities.</i><br /><br />Glad you see it our way :-)<br /><br />I would say that skeptics are arguing with believers like yourself that defend that kind of behavior as being A-OK as long as the command comes from God. If you read these same stories coming from another religion, you would condemn the characters as acting immorally. But when the story is found in a book that you revere as sacred, the behavior of the characters is no longer considered to be bad. Yahweh and his chosen tribe get a free pass for engaging in extreme brutality.Walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08597511645534603563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-8641178130644358782010-06-14T16:28:05.998-04:002010-06-14T16:28:05.998-04:00If you don't believe the Bible has historical ...If you don't believe the Bible has historical merit, then what makes you think that Israel actually killed anyone anyway? How do you get to have it both ways? You get to reject a God who would order such things, but then dismiss the record that claims he ordered it. I'm confused.<br /><br />Since there is no God, He didn't actually order any such killings. And since the "biblical" record of such atrocities happening is just the inaccurate invention of people anyway, maybe you're actually all worked up over nothing! There was no conquest. There were no atrocities.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03838145378973133704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-10198321269460228012010-06-14T13:03:04.058-04:002010-06-14T13:03:04.058-04:00You can't hate something or someone that you d...You can't hate something or someone that you don't believe exists. I despise the wrongs done in the name of this one that I don't believe exists.Ken Pulliamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12161943466797514854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-78624837601831449332010-06-14T13:02:18.718-04:002010-06-14T13:02:18.718-04:00DC Griff,
Or has anyone ever claimed that Santa C...DC Griff,<br /><br />Or has anyone ever claimed that Santa Claus ordered them to kill a whole group of people including babies?Ken Pulliamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12161943466797514854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-77975130223495694222010-06-14T12:21:04.332-04:002010-06-14T12:21:04.332-04:00Think of all the resources that have been spent pr...Think of all the resources that have been spent promoting the idea of Santa Claus! Wouldn't those gazillions of dollars been better served feeding the hungry and clothing the naked? Perhaps one of your readers could take up that cause. Come on, admit it. You do actually hate God. The rest of us can see your bias here. I freely admit that I am biased towards faith. It is a lense through which I see and interpret the world. Your lense is unbelief. It colors everything you see.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03838145378973133704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-42548301548229225292010-06-14T12:00:30.134-04:002010-06-14T12:00:30.134-04:00Chaz,
Why don't you enlighten us then?Chaz,<br /><br />Why don't you enlighten us then?Ken Pulliamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12161943466797514854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-72919046218792844422010-06-14T12:00:00.220-04:002010-06-14T12:00:00.220-04:00DC Griff,
In the history of the world, have there...DC Griff,<br /><br />In the history of the world, have there ever been people who killed in the name of Santa Claus?Ken Pulliamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12161943466797514854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-75841410734155704552010-06-14T11:37:04.697-04:002010-06-14T11:37:04.697-04:00I really surprized tha a phd like you dont know th...I really surprized tha a phd like you dont know that that old dude Maimonides already answered all this stuff.chaz millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05211095136616062874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-65746305566147588232010-06-14T11:31:00.820-04:002010-06-14T11:31:00.820-04:00Do I have a blog dedicated to destroying the
myth ...Do I have a blog dedicated to destroying the<br />myth of Santa Claus?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03838145378973133704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-26044199357933995962010-06-14T09:01:45.144-04:002010-06-14T09:01:45.144-04:00DC Griff,
No, I see it as reason not to believe i...DC Griff,<br /><br />No, I see it as reason not to believe in God, at least a god who would command such a thing. Do you hate Santa Claus?Ken Pulliamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12161943466797514854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-27456735175550219102010-06-14T07:57:41.575-04:002010-06-14T07:57:41.575-04:00We both see killing babies as horrific. You see it...We both see killing babies as horrific. You see it as an occasion to hate God. I see it as an occassionally to hate sin which made the conquest a necessary evil as a step towards ultimate redemption.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03838145378973133704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-66151904354886621092010-06-13T10:25:33.516-04:002010-06-13T10:25:33.516-04:00DC Griff,
Please watch the video in the post I di...DC Griff,<br /><br />Please watch the video in the post I did today on Ethical Intuitionism. I think its totally unnatural to kill innocents. How one could even kill a baby in its mother's arms is beyond me. How a loving God could command such is beyond me.Ken Pulliamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12161943466797514854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-82343088485908152172010-06-13T09:58:49.130-04:002010-06-13T09:58:49.130-04:00Seems like a God capable of speaking an entire uni...Seems like a God capable of speaking an entire universe into existence could simply cause all of the "-ites" in Canaan to simply drop dead--clearing the land for the "chosen" tribe.<br /><br />It's funny that an omnipotent God could have such a fragile plan that was almost thwarted by some bronze age warriors.Walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08597511645534603563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-19153510731907323912010-06-13T09:54:30.184-04:002010-06-13T09:54:30.184-04:00"Furthermore, you have the problem of the Ama..."Furthermore, you have the problem of the Amalekite slaughter in 1 Sam. 15. These people were killed for what their forefathers did centuries prior. How can you justify that?"<br /><br />You assume they were not still at war against Israel. According to Exodus 17:16, Amalek raised their fist against God's throne itself resulting in the declaration that God would be at war with Amalek "generation after generation."<br /><br />The reason for the attack was because war was still being actively waged between Israel and Amalek. There are many second and third generation terrorists who continue the fight against democracy despite the fact that the initial warring personalities have died. I suppose all wars would be conveniently settled by jut sending their leaders to war. Oh, wait a second, isn't that what Jesus ultimately did crushing the serpent's head?<br /><br />I'd like to have the time to read all of your other blogs on this topic, fortunately this blog isn't my life and I have many other things that occupy my time and thought. Regrettably, I am only afforded an occasional perusal of your material. If I do get more time, I will. I do enjoy reading your stuff despite our likely irreconcilable differences.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03838145378973133704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-35267810150955353282010-06-13T09:34:18.839-04:002010-06-13T09:34:18.839-04:00I only have time for the first question now.
&quo...I only have time for the first question now.<br /><br />"the action didn't work. By the time you get to the book of Judges, virtually the whole nation of Israel is idolatrous. If that was going to happen anyway, then why kill all those innocents in Joshua"<br /><br />Because it did actually work. Because of the conquest there would still be a remnant through whom God's mission would ultimately be fulfilled. Jesus did come, but only because of the remnant, and that only because of the initial conquest. Without the conquest there would have been no remnant, no Messiah, no kingdom re-established, no hope--the kingdom of darkness wins. Those who have tasted the powers of the age to come in the present expression kingdom of God, are grateful that this option is available.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03838145378973133704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-6990196868131057022010-06-13T08:47:13.019-04:002010-06-13T08:47:13.019-04:00DC Griff,
Thanks for the comments. If you have ti...DC Griff,<br /><br />Thanks for the comments. If you have time go back and read my series on this subject as I discussed virtually every argument you made. <br /><br />Yes war is ugly but there are rules of warfare that countries have agreed upon. One of those is not to target innocents. Innocents are killed but they should be collateral damage not direct targets. Yahweh commanded the complete destruction of peoples including the infants. If a nation engaged in that kind of warfare today, virtually the whole world would decry it. Yet if God says to do it, its okay? That is very dangerous. The Islamists who flew the planes on 9/11 thought God had commanded them too.<br /><br />Even if one accepted your explanation as justifying the killing of whole peoples in order to establish a beachhead and avoid the corruption of idolatry, the action didn't work. By the time you get to the book of Judges, virtually the whole nation of Israel is idolatrous. If that was going to happen anyway, then why kill all those innocents in Joshua?<br /><br />Furthermore, you have the problem of the Amalekite slaughter in 1 Sam. 15. These people were killed for what their forefathers did centuries prior. How can you justify that?Ken Pulliamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12161943466797514854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-26666269717609218742010-06-13T08:32:11.723-04:002010-06-13T08:32:11.723-04:00I'm raising my hand to admit total confusion! ...I'm raising my hand to admit total confusion! I think trying to figure out the Bible-what it all means, how to apply it, etc. forever-is crazy-making!<br /><br />The happiest people ofcourse just read a nice little verse, say "how beautiful!" and go on their merry way with some vague notion of "goodness" from the Bible. They maintain this by not spending too much time reading it, I think.<br /><br />It's always struck me how Christians have to be nagged about daily devotions-I think this shows reading the Bible and praying is a chore even for many Christians.<br /><br />The Bible is much more interesting when read not as a guide for life, but as a document to be dissected to see who, why, when, where, any archeology backing this stuff up, etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-11297929769593586302010-06-13T08:29:00.280-04:002010-06-13T08:29:00.280-04:00To compare the pre-conquest commands to slaughter ...To compare the pre-conquest commands to slaughter babies and the later teachings of Jesus about loving one’ neighbor and conclude they are incompatible (and thus “proof” that the whole thing is a sham) is (in my mind) to make at least two mistakes.<br /><br />The first mistake is assuming that they are both presented as moral standards for normal living. The Bible says no such thing. The pre-conquest commands were a wartime standard. Far off neighbors of Israel were to be provided an option to submit or be vanquished. Near neighbors (all of the –ites) were to be completely destroyed. The OT explains the rational behind the “no mercy” policy. Yahweh was seeking to establish a beachhead for the geographical location of an earthly throne in Israel through which he would ultimately bring the ultimate deliverer-king, Messiah. Yahweh states clearly that the reason for such extremity was the real potential for loss of this beachhead. The idol-devil worshippers would become a snare to Israel that would ultimately threaten this beachhead, and thus the ultimate plan to bring Messiah would be thwarted. The remaining history of the OT shows that this threat was real and if left to Israel’s faithfulness alone, Messiah would never have made it.<br /><br />This doesn’t justify killing babies as a normal ethic for normal day-to-day living. It does show just how intolerant Yahweh is of the kingdom of darkness. There can be no agreement between Christ and Belial. In the end there won’t be a coming to terms between Christ and the devil. Satan’s rule of darkness will be utterly destroyed along with all his subjects—those who have refused the offer to repent and enter God’s kingdom through faith in Christ.<br /><br />A second mistake fails to understand the ultimate goal in the Canaan conquest. The goal was to re-establish God’s rule (his perfect will) on earth. Jesus’ teachings about the kingdom of God accurately reflect the will of God “as it is in heaven”. This was made possible, in part, because of the conquest. Jesus’ teachings do in fact reveal the perfect will of God. Loving one’s neighbor has always been a reflection of God’s heart. The conquest commands were required because a real battle was at hand.<br /><br />Today, Europe enjoys relative peace and safety. Prior to the Normandy invasion, Hitler was oppressing and slaughtering all over the continent. The necessary steps to take Omaha beach under Eisenhower were ruthless. The beach had to be taken at all costs. This wasn’t “life as normal”—it was war. Eisenhower didn’t bring Hitler candy and flowers.<br /><br />Was there another way? My theology about God’s good, loving and holy nature says that if this means wasn’t absolutely necessary, God would have found anther way. Apparently there wasn’t. I don’t presume to understand everything about God and his perspective of the two kingdoms. <br /><br />I leave all such presumption to this blog site.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03838145378973133704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-9269267772999024482010-06-12T20:50:58.633-04:002010-06-12T20:50:58.633-04:00After reading the whole article by Kenton Sparks I...After reading the whole article by Kenton Sparks I find myself rather confused. It is okay to believe that the bible was written by men who made errors, however, Jesus is still the son of god and the way to salvation. He believes Jesus will return one day. Not sure how one picks and choses what is truth in the bible and what is not. Again the christians do not agree on what the bible teaches and what should or should not be believed. Anyone else confused?cerbazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05979844017918932544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-22116165609271881152010-06-12T19:53:27.037-04:002010-06-12T19:53:27.037-04:00I like just about anything that Sparks writes. His...I like just about anything that Sparks writes. His "God's Word in Human Words" is what finally ended my faith. I honestly do not understand why people like Peter Enns and Kenton Sparks continues in the faith despite all of the problems with the Bible and Christianity.Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17693944542336729866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-2293004456702918382010-06-12T15:36:56.890-04:002010-06-12T15:36:56.890-04:00It's utterly transparent that modern Christian...It's utterly transparent that modern Christians want the Bible, and their God, to be a source of absolute moral truth; but when confronted with the innumerable atrocities condoned and commanded by God in the Bible, they rationalize it with cultural relativism – the same thing they posture themselves as opposing. <br /><br />Sorry xtians, you can't have it both ways!Mike Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04097261108461657167noreply@blogger.com