tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post5014723782234082538..comments2024-01-24T04:02:06.466-05:00Comments on Why I De-Converted from Evangelical Christianity: Forget about Noah’s Ark; There Was No Worldwide FloodKen Pulliamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12161943466797514854noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-29715409587199131252010-05-04T16:08:36.298-04:002010-05-04T16:08:36.298-04:00Why? There are probably a lot of depressed Christi...<i>Why? There are probably a lot of depressed Christians out there who would be encouraged to know they're not alone.</i><br /><br />There were many, many points during my Christian walk when I was depressed. So much of the message I got at church basically boiled down to a very Puritanical, "If you're right with god everything will be okay," so I tried to cover it.<br /><br />There was a Christian band called Kepano Green that never had that much success outside of the Wheaton, IL area. They sang songs about being hurt after breakups and wondering where god was in pain and all that generally unmentionable stuff. I remember feeling better after listening to them because I realized, "It's okay to admit you're not happy right now."<br /><br />So, yeah. I think that if you have a public forum where it's appropriate (and personal blogs pretty much fit that by definition), then you should share how you really feel about stuff. Even...no, especially if it's something that will get people clutching their pearls and clucking about how you should never, ever do that.<br /><br />If your argument boils down to, "Don't be honest, it will make the rest of the group look bad," chances are there's something wrong with the group...<br /><br />Also, I just developed this strange desire to listen to Kepano Green. Weird.Gedshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15047239425466517786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-80434876696803812422010-05-04T14:19:58.078-04:002010-05-04T14:19:58.078-04:00John,
I agree with Steve. If Christianity is true...John,<br /><br />I agree with Steve. If Christianity is true, then one ought not to have "hide" anything to keep others from stumbling. While airing one's personal life for all to see is something I wouldn't want to do, I am not going to criticize Michael for doing so nor am I going to try to score some cheap point for atheism from it.Ken Pulliamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12161943466797514854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-16351612172187711782010-05-04T12:54:21.598-04:002010-05-04T12:54:21.598-04:00John said:
"But personally, I think this sor...John said:<br /><br />"But personally, I think this sort of stuff should be kept to your friends. It can even have a harmful effect on some."<br /><br />Why? There are probably a lot of depressed Christians out there who would be encouraged to know they're not alone. They look around at the joyful facades everyone displays at church and view themselves as special cases (thereby deepening their misery). This guy is offering a dose of reality that may help buoy up some hurting people.SteveJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04525881183798559993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-70948975940958659342010-05-04T12:22:26.415-04:002010-05-04T12:22:26.415-04:00Ken,
Some readers are not prepared for this sor...Ken, <br /><br />Some readers are not prepared for this sort of stuff. I go to his blog for some ideas on theology, as I do to yours (on the con side). <br /><br />I am sure Michael is a friend to many and this is evident in the comments. But personally, I think this sort of stuff should be kept to your friends. It can even have a harmful effect on some. I wish him the best but I think that should have been posted elsewhere. Thanks for your reply.John Sfiferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00875271904363363020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-31237674934779682012010-05-04T12:01:02.089-04:002010-05-04T12:01:02.089-04:00John,
I consider Michael Patton at Pen and Parchm...John,<br /><br />I consider Michael Patton at Pen and Parchment a friend. I don't know exactly what he has been going through but it may be clinical depression. Believers and unbelievers alike are subject to chemical imbalances. So I would not make any judgments based on that. I appreciate Michael's honesty. He is one of the few Christians on the net that I have encountered who is really transparent.Ken Pulliamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12161943466797514854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-56914207629329988352010-05-04T11:54:12.748-04:002010-05-04T11:54:12.748-04:00Michael-very insightful thanks.
I don't know ...Michael-very insightful thanks.<br /><br />I don't know but I can't help but wonder about christiantiy when I stumble upon a christian blog about being so manically depressed (http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2010/05/after-depression-an-update-on-my-depression/). Then I come here and chat with people who are a little more level headed. I am not gonna draw conclusions but there is a case to be made.John Sfiferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00875271904363363020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-80404451443868555052010-05-04T10:57:35.280-04:002010-05-04T10:57:35.280-04:00But let's consider, hypothetically, what happe...But let's consider, hypothetically, what happens if Christianity is destroyed. Say that all the myriad flavors of Christian belief are suddenly discredited, unlikely as that seems. Say that we find, preserved intact, a set of correspendence between, I dunno, Matthew and Luke; in which they discuss this great scam that they've got going and marvel at the fact that Paul believes it completely.<br /><br />What then?<br /><br />Well, first of all, I don't expect to see a sudden rise in immoral behavior. Christians, as a group, don't seem to be any more or less moral than anyone else; taking that belief away probably won't make much difference to their behavior. By the same token, I don't think you'd see any noticeable increase in human misery; I haven't noticed that Christians (again, in general) are any happier or less happy than anyone else.<br /><br />Second, I think you'd see a fair number of former Christians converting to other religions (just as they move from denomination to denomination now). You'd probably also see a lot of them become unbelievers of one stripe or another. But to be honest, even the scenario I suggested above - direct documentation from the Apostles themselves saying that Jesus never existed - probably wouldn't dissolve Christianity entirely. There would be a vocal contingent insisting that the whole thing <i>must</i> be a hoax; there would be another contingent pointing out that the Truth of Christianity was a transcendant truth rather than a historical truth; and there would be another contingent pointing out that Jesus had a lot of good things to say about how we live our lives, so we should follow his teachings even if <i>was</i> fictional.<br /><br />But, basically, if you're worried that the downfall of Christianity would bring about the end of civilization... don't be. People are vastly more adaptable than that.Michael Mockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06233321050691782148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-38970944848011553532010-05-04T10:57:15.785-04:002010-05-04T10:57:15.785-04:00John Sfifer: "On top of that, they have a sin...John Sfifer: "On top of that, they have a single minded agenda and that is to destroy chrstianity. That personally scares me. Let's assume christianity is destroyed (wishful thinking), what worries me is what type of division will be then created? The nonbelievers will not always be a united group."<br /><br />Do you really believe that nonbelievers are a united group <i>now</i>? 'Cause if so, I think you need to get out more. Also... "single minded?" Maybe it's just the nonbelievers I hang out with, but that hasn't been my experience at all. In my experience, nonbelievers have a wide variety of individual interests, quite apart from wanting to destroy Christianity and plunge the world into a nightmarish half-life under the direct control of Satan. (In case anyone missed it, that last part was irony.) <br /><br />There are nonbelievers who think that all religion is inherently evil, and that the world would be better off if people would give up this dangerous foolishness. They argue from the long history of religious persecution, wars, and the long list of evils done in the name of various religions. I disagree; like Geds, I think that people do horrible things to each other not because of religion, but because they are people.<br /><br />There are nonbelievers who argue that religion serves as an amplifier for evil. I can't remember the exact quote, but the view is basically this: good men will be good on their own, and evil men will do evil; but for a good man to do evil requires religion. Personally, I think this a lot more defensible than the view that all religion is evil, but I still have some misgivings about it.<br /><br />My personal view is that religion is basically just something that people do - like art, or music. Anywhere you find people, you find some sort of religious belief: some belief in the Unseen Forces That Govern Our Lives. There's a nearly-unbelievable <i>variety</i> of these beliefs, but if there is or ever was a tribe of "natural atheists", I don't know about them.<br /><br />So I doubt seriously that Christianity is in any danger of being "destroyed". At worst, it might become irrelevant - and I suspect that's a gradual process which is already underway. But even in my lifetime, Wicca and other neo-pagan beliefs have gone from being unknown to being relatively mainstream, which leads me to think that while people in general may be feeling less need for religion overall, they're also feeling a need for different <i>kinds</i> of religion.Michael Mockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06233321050691782148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-648388489553502262010-05-04T10:56:24.513-04:002010-05-04T10:56:24.513-04:00John Sfifer : "Us vs. them can apply to athes...John Sfifer : "Us vs. them can apply to athests/nonbelivers as well." <br /><br />Absolutely; it's a large factor in current American politics - in fact, I would argue that this sort of 'tribal loyalty' is a large part of what's keeping the U.S. Government from working the way it's supposed to right now.Michael Mockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06233321050691782148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-79363578118339059182010-05-04T09:58:00.419-04:002010-05-04T09:58:00.419-04:00If Atheism is so bad, why are countries such as Sw...If Atheism is so bad, why are countries such as Sweden, some of the safest and most civilised societies in the world? In Sweden, they are 90 percent atheists.Clarehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17836679819711814306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-33075951818548818162010-05-04T09:41:16.392-04:002010-05-04T09:41:16.392-04:00John,
Yes "us" vs. "them" can...John,<br /><br />Yes "us" vs. "them" can apply to non-believers as well but here is the difference--non-believers don't feel that they have a divine mandate upon which to act. When zeal is coupled with the belief that one is doing "God's will" that is what is truly scary.Ken Pulliamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12161943466797514854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-90500372271298849572010-05-04T09:38:31.152-04:002010-05-04T09:38:31.152-04:00Scott,
But that would mean that you would have to...Scott,<br /><br />But that would mean that you would have to exclude Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards and a host of others from the ranks of "true" Christians.<br /><br />Of course many Muslims say that the radical terrorists are not true "Muslims." <br /><br />Whether the Muslims or the Christians are "true" believers is irrelevant. The fact is that their belief system derived from their interpretation of their holy book drives them to commit atrocities.Ken Pulliamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12161943466797514854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-66565786022736364422010-05-04T09:23:48.259-04:002010-05-04T09:23:48.259-04:00John Sfifer: Let's assume christianity is des...John Sfifer: <i>Let's assume christianity is destroyed (wishful thinking), what worries me is what type of division will be then created? The nonbelievers will not always be a united group. </i><br /><br />What? Like the Arian v. Nestorian schisms that nearly tore apart the Byzantine Empire? Or the Orthodox v. Monophysite schisms that nearly tore apart the Byzantine Empire? Or the Orthodox v. Monophysite v. Monothelitism schisms that nearly tore apart the Byzantine Empire? Or the Catholic v. Orthodox schism that did tear apart the Church? Or the creation of the Anglican Church? Or the Reformation? Or the counter Reformation? Or the bits where when I was growing up in an Evangelical Bible church we were all convinced that Catholics weren't "real" Christians and those liberal mainline churches were suspect, too? Or that bit where the Christian Hutu in Rwanda slaughtered the Christian Tutsi? Maybe the part where the Tutsi slaughtered back?<br /><br />If there's no Christianity people will fight. It's human nature and the inevitable end-product of having infinite wants and finite means. But when there is Christianity it's not like people don't fight. Claiming that Christianity keeps the peace is laughable and very much a case of special pleading.<br /><br /><i>On top of that, they have a single minded agenda and that is to destroy chrstianity. That personally scares me.</i><br /><br />There is no such agenda. Some, like PZ Myers or Christopher Hitchens would like to see it gone. Most of the rest of us would just like to see it taken out of the public sphere. Christianity as preached by the American Right is a danger to everyone's freedom and stands completely against the principles of the foundation of America. Secular, even-handed government is good for everyone, even the Christians who seem to think that the world will suddenly fall apart.<br /><br />It won't. It will just allow everyone to hold their own beliefs in peace. Christianity deserves as much protection as Islam, Buddhism or non-belief from persecution. But the trade off is that Christianity can't be allowed to have any more influence than any other belief, either.Gedshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15047239425466517786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-3890703622101474492010-05-04T08:47:39.394-04:002010-05-04T08:47:39.394-04:00The irnoy is the non-believers are taking page out...The irnoy is the non-believers are taking page out of that playbook: They are writing books now on amazon, and they blog like crazy and even ridicule christians. On top of that, they have a single minded agenda and that is to destroy chrstianity. That personally scares me. Let's assume christianity is destroyed (wishful thinking), what worries me is what type of division will be then created? The nonbelievers will not always be a united group.John Sfiferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00875271904363363020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-72460560946135253082010-05-04T08:25:49.038-04:002010-05-04T08:25:49.038-04:00"Scott,
I should have said potentially dange..."Scott,<br /><br />I should have said potentially dangerous." <br /><br />Thanks for clarifying Ken. That's what I thought you meant.<br /><br />And I agree that there are dangerous elements within the various religious systems. But I also believe that those who are dangerous, especially within Christianity, are not truly representative of the faith they claim to be defending. Matthew 7:21 - “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." "For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:40)<br /><br />ScottWrite@titudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11554285559406684101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-81035394323416102112010-05-04T07:14:49.647-04:002010-05-04T07:14:49.647-04:00Us vs. them can apply to athests/nonbelivers as we...Us vs. them can apply to athests/nonbelivers as well.John Sfiferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00875271904363363020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-71585921924776986112010-05-04T06:00:44.209-04:002010-05-04T06:00:44.209-04:00Scott,
I should have said potentially dangerous...Scott,<br /><br />I should have said <b> potentially </b> dangerous. Most Christians are not dangerous just as most Muslims are not dangerous. However, there is an element within both that have the potential to be very dangerous and it is based on their understanding of "us" vs. "them." "Us" being God's people and "them" being the infidels.Ken Pulliamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12161943466797514854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-83483626417674991622010-05-04T05:56:15.287-04:002010-05-04T05:56:15.287-04:00Scott,
I don't think that by the time of the ...Scott,<br /><br />I don't think that by the time of the NT, the writers or any of the Jews knew that the flood was a borrowed myth. It had become inscripturated and they were, like fundamentalists today, of the opinion that if it was written in their Scriptures, then it had to be true.<br /><br />As far as what they borrowed, they borrowed a lot of things and this was not unique to them. All religions do this. See David Eller's, <i> The Anthropology of Religion</i>. What Yahweh condemned was anything that could result in his people leaving him and worshipping any of the other gods.Ken Pulliamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12161943466797514854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-84903967874329052782010-05-04T03:18:00.956-04:002010-05-04T03:18:00.956-04:00@John Sfifer -- The utilitarian appeal that "...@John Sfifer -- The utilitarian appeal that "Christianity makes people more civil" is almost as useless and counterproductive as the appeal to the Bible as a manual of geology, history, and astrophysics. It's true that Christ said, "You are the salt of the earth, and what then if the salt loses it's saltiness?". But He didn't say, "In order to preserve the world, we must convince swine to become salt". That was never an evangelization tactic, and you ought not use it as such.JSAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00681934865643964687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-44078472943313744572010-05-03T22:56:30.407-04:002010-05-03T22:56:30.407-04:00Check out some Australian mega fauna and try to ex...Check out some Australian mega fauna and try to explain that in relation to the ark story.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13795746997844392001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-77746865170900708802010-05-03T22:24:57.460-04:002010-05-03T22:24:57.460-04:00Jon Sfifer: Would that satisfy you and your follo...Jon Sfifer: <i>Would that satisfy you and your followers? What kind of world would we have?</i><br /><br />And who, pray tell, are the good Dr's followers? Am I one of them? Because I'm pretty sure that I just read this blog and comment on stuff. I'm not waiting for my orders from on high...<br /><br />Write: <i>I find it interesting that Jesus in Luke 6 & 17, the writer of Hebrews in chapter 11, and Peter (1 Peter 3 & 2 Peter 5) use the flood to make important theological statements.</i><br /><br />Well, Scalia once wrote a Supreme Court opinion based on <i>24</i>.<br /><br />But, to the point, that argument doesn't get you anywhere. It could have been using an illustration that the people in the audience would have understood. The writers could have also genuinely believed that there was a Flood. That doesn't mean there was a flood.<br /><br />If you met someone who believed that <i>Star Trek</i> is actually a future documentary that fell through a time warp and behaved accordingly, would you feel compelled to believe the same thing? Or would you look at the evidence provided by the fact that we've seen the actors in other parts, there are pictures of the soundstages on which the show was filmed, etc. and decide not to take your new acquaintance seriously when he was talking about his belief in future space travel?<br /><br /><i>What do you mean by "dangerous"? Do you think the likes of John Bunyan, Corrie ten Boom, Norm Geisler, and Billy Graham dangerous? When you were a "believer" did you consider yourself dangerous?</i><br /><br />How about all those times in the Jewish Bible when Yahweh ordered his Chosen People to slaughter the men, women, children, and cattle of the neighboring tribes? How about the Crusades? All the Native Americans who were given the option of converting at the point of a sword? How about the genocide in Rwanda? What about the various cult leaders? Muslim jihadis?<br /><br />Belief that one side is 100% deserving of control and the other is 100% craven is dangerous. Cherry picking good people who believed doesn't fix that.<br /><br />And I can't speak for Ken, but I used to teach junior highers in church youth group and mentor younger college students. I do regret trying to make sure that they further bought in to the system I eventually came to realize was dangerous and outdated. And I knew plenty of people who I would consider dangerous. Some of the most judgmental, hypocritical people I've met were pastors who were simply attempting to maintain control of the people in their churches.<br /><br />Also, what's up with the quotes around believer?Gedshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15047239425466517786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-92204923784798867712010-05-03T20:28:15.892-04:002010-05-03T20:28:15.892-04:00Ken: "Anyone who thinks that they are God'...Ken: <i>"<b>Anyone</b> who thinks that they are God's special people and others are not are dangerous."</i><br /><br />What do you mean by "dangerous"? Do you think the likes of John Bunyan, Corrie ten Boom, Norm Geisler, and Billy Graham dangerous? When you were a "believer" did you consider yourself dangerous? <br /><br />ScottWrite@titudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11554285559406684101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-80016078638132334292010-05-03T20:20:55.277-04:002010-05-03T20:20:55.277-04:00Ken & Edward,
I find it interesting that Jesu...Ken & Edward,<br /><br />I find it interesting that Jesus in Luke 6 & 17, the writer of Hebrews in chapter 11, and Peter (1 Peter 3 & 2 Peter 5) use the flood to make important theological statements. This seems a risky thing to do if the Jewish culture of the day knew this was a borrowed myth, don't you think? Also, if you know, I'm sincerely curious if the other cultures incorporate their flood myths into their greater body of theology? <br /><br />Edward says, <i>The Hebrews also copied exalted terms and addresses toward god, copied the notion of animal sacrifices, directed the entrances of their temples eastward as other cultures did before them, added areas of increasing holiness to their temples as others did before them. Added the rite of circumcision as others did before them.</i> <br /><br />It is interesting to me that in the Hebrew scriptures the Israelites weren't judged by God for "copying" any of these particular practices you mention. They were judged, though, for borrowing other aspects of foreign cultures and religious practices. Why do you suppose they were judged for some "borrowed" practices and not others? What's the historical perspective on this? <br /><br />ScottWrite@titudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11554285559406684101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-55913151565433403402010-05-03T19:04:59.997-04:002010-05-03T19:04:59.997-04:00Thanks Ken, will have to chew on that.Thanks Ken, will have to chew on that.John Sfiferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00875271904363363020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-61742185690015386522010-05-03T18:47:40.323-04:002010-05-03T18:47:40.323-04:00John,
I am convinced that conservative Christiani...John,<br /><br />I am convinced that conservative Christianity is a detriment to society. Yes, it does some good things but overall I think it does more bad things. I also am convinced that its not true so I can't advocate believing in something that is not true for pragmatic reasons.<br /><br />I think people need to realize there are no easy answers to the difficult questions in life. People want them desperately and hence the success of religion. They don't have to prove anything; just believe. That appeals to a lot of folks. I don't think the change will come suddenly. It will come instead gradually as it has in Europe where fewer and fewer of the next generations will believe in conservative religions. Unfortunately for the forseeable future though there will be adherents of extreme religions and that is scary. Anyone who thinks that they are God's special people and others are not are dangerous. Some will take this religious zeal to the point of murder. Christians did this in the 16th and 17th centuries in Europe and there are still some nut jobs around to blow up abortion clinics and federal buildings. Couple that with extreme Islam and we have a huge problem on our hands.Ken Pulliamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12161943466797514854noreply@blogger.com