tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post6056249076418186294..comments2024-01-24T04:02:06.466-05:00Comments on Why I De-Converted from Evangelical Christianity: Is the Bible Clear on How Someone can be "Saved"?Ken Pulliamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12161943466797514854noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-23895077056234691742010-10-05T04:52:36.856-04:002010-10-05T04:52:36.856-04:00"It's not that hard to figure out. There ..."It's not that hard to figure out. There are a lot of different descriptions and they do not disagree."<br /><br />They *do* disagree. That's the whole point.<br /><br />'You should ask them that question, but it's their shame that they don't know how to answer. The correct answer is "death."'<br /><br />If that's what Jesus saved us from, then he failed, because we're all going to die.Paul D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13483419817200339955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-75576975309915712392010-10-02T19:11:57.228-04:002010-10-02T19:11:57.228-04:00Lynn asked: "Would some of the writers themse...Lynn asked: "Would some of the writers themselves be shocked to learn that what they wrote was now considered "Holy Scripture?" <br /><br />Answer: I don't think they would be shocked at all: Peter referred to Paul's writings as scripture. <br /><br />2Pe 3:16<br />(16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.<br /><br /> * * *<br /><br />Clare asked: "Saved from what?"<br /><br />You should ask them that question, but it's their shame that they don't know how to answer. The correct answer is "death."<br /><br />Rom 6:23<br />(23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.<br /><br /> * * *<br /><br />To Hacksaw Duck, Jesus did not merely tell the young ruler to "keep the commandments." He did list the latter "love thy neighbor" commandments but did not mention the first four "love God" commandments.<br /><br />When the man responded that he already had kept those commandments, Jesus told him he still lacked one thing.<br /><br />Mar 10:21<br />(21) Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.<br /><br />Mar 10:26<br />(26) And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?<br /><br />That's how to apply "Love God with all your heart" and that's how Christ defined the meaning of "saving faith." <br /><br />* * *<br /><br />For Ken, who wrote:<br /><br />"As I stated at the beginning, it seems to me that if the Bible were really a divine revelation, it would be clear and unambiguous throughout but at the very least it would be plain on how one is to be saved."<br /><br />It's not that hard to figure out. There are a lot of different descriptions and they do not disagree.<br /><br />If you asked a dozen different people to describe a random animal or object in 20 words of less you would probably get many different answers. The full object is described by the combination of the descriptions, not contradicted because it is described in 12 different ways.<br /><br />In this thought experiment, we asked a dozen normal people. Your problem is compounded in that you're asking a dozen different theologians many of which probably have their own agendas.<br /><br />It's not that hard and the Bible's not that cryptic on this. I think you could figure it out if you *wanted* too.<br /><br />Your repeated argument (from other blogs) that this "disagreement about salvation" represents proof that there is no God remains illogical. So what if there are people who wrest the scriptures to their own destruction?<br /><br />"Believe and be baptized" is another way of describing "sell all that you have and follow me." When you can see this you'll understand.Andrew Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17550484658058710506noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-4541093181235421372010-10-02T14:53:09.964-04:002010-10-02T14:53:09.964-04:00With the name of Allah, Peace be unto those who fo...With the name of Allah, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.<br /><br />Ken I think the material you put on here is very amazing. Some others have made the comments that you need to write a book or could be on stage with Ehrman. This is all true, however you give humanity a great service by giving the critique that you do.<br /><br />I have found many of your articles and points of view to be very refreshing. You also do not come off as abrasive and filled with ego like so many others.<br /><br />Thank you for the time, research and effort you put into blog post.thegrandverbalizer19https://www.blogger.com/profile/15600393095781979367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-36397927449026436402010-09-29T23:23:44.872-04:002010-09-29T23:23:44.872-04:00I wonder what the Jews to whom Jesus preached thou...I wonder what the Jews to whom Jesus preached thought about "being saved". Judaism hadn't developed the complicated afterlife of modern Christianity yet, with heaven and hell and all that. Instead, they tended to believe in some kind of eventual resurrection and judgment with the coming of the Messiah, who I gather was to kick out the Romans and establish a new Jewish kingdom. As Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet and preacher of sorts, they would have expected his message of "salvation" to tell them how to participate in this event and be judged favourably. I don't think they would have understood salvation as a mystical ritual for avoiding an afterlife of torment.Paul D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13483419817200339955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-11791443001695494622010-09-29T20:59:28.788-04:002010-09-29T20:59:28.788-04:00Kudos, Kudos! I have lots of formal theology and l...Kudos, Kudos! I have lots of formal theology and lots of for-fun study I've done, as you know, Ken. And I consider this right at the core of what is most flawed and dysfunctional in orthodox Christianity. And it ties very tightly into your difficulties-with-atonement work.<br /><br />For most Christians, being "saved" (or equivalent) is the starting point and determines one's eternal destiny. And Luke and you are entirely right... there is no clarity whatsoever on just what constitutes "saving faith" in the Bible. Thus, there is no consensus either, nor can there be. The logical conclusion is that something in the system MUST be wrong... but the majority refuse to look there. However keeping reminding believes of core issues like this potentially can "save" some from feeling they need to be saved (and hoping, but often not being sure they are)!Howard Pepperhttp://www.naturalspirituality.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-37408042666993326502010-09-29T20:46:25.022-04:002010-09-29T20:46:25.022-04:00Why?
Is scheming over life after death a proper fu...Why?<br />Is scheming over life after death a proper function for a religion? Are endless, noisy discussions about life after death worth the discord they cause? Does belief in life after death justify the hideous behavior of Jesus Worshipers?<br />What if what we do in this life has nothing to do with what happens when we die? Or, more to the point, what if what we believe has nothing to do with our post mortem existence?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-17889232346613458492010-09-29T19:14:18.542-04:002010-09-29T19:14:18.542-04:00Ken, this is one of the best blogs you've done...Ken, this is one of the best blogs you've done. You really have the credentials, the depth of knowledge and the ability to articulate your point of view that it practically begs for a book (or three). You could easily sit along side someone like Ehrman in terms of prominence in the public forum. <br /><br />Some people who read my blog have told me I should write a book, but I'm not sure who would care what a personal trainer thinks about God.Mike Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04097261108461657167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-57053586716393297992010-09-29T15:12:13.992-04:002010-09-29T15:12:13.992-04:00When Christians tell me that I can be saved, I alw...When Christians tell me that I can be saved, I always answer "Saved from what?" That is generally greeted with silence.Clarehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17836679819711814306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-77129456557371326502010-09-29T13:23:51.523-04:002010-09-29T13:23:51.523-04:00Great clip of Bart. Thanks!Great clip of Bart. Thanks!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-54066125573565479612010-09-29T11:46:12.214-04:002010-09-29T11:46:12.214-04:00Yeah, Ehrman is awesome! Here's a cool clip of...Yeah, Ehrman is awesome! Here's a cool clip of Bart again punking on a believer:<br /><br />http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/224128/april-09-2009/bart-ehrmanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-1983307801036278962010-09-29T10:46:38.024-04:002010-09-29T10:46:38.024-04:00This article, coupled with Bart Ehrman's books...This article, coupled with Bart Ehrman's books, should be required reading for anyone wanting to be truly educated regarding the Bible as we know it.<br /><br />As usual, yet another excellent article. I'm really glad you continue to share your knowledge here.Sierranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-50869769049378532472010-09-29T08:35:39.458-04:002010-09-29T08:35:39.458-04:00I see the Bible now as a bunch of "books"...I see the Bible now as a bunch of "books" that were chosen from a larger bunch. Men pared it down to these certain books, hoped they meshed well enough, and declared them "the Word of God."<br /><br />I guess they were trying to limit the confusion, and they planned to be the interpreters of what the "Bible" said.<br /><br />Would some of the writers themselves be shocked to learn that what they wrote was now considered "Holy Scripture?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-50173925844164355222010-09-29T07:22:51.271-04:002010-09-29T07:22:51.271-04:00The Rich Young Man asked Jesus point blank how to ...The Rich Young Man asked Jesus point blank how to get eternal life in the kingdom of God and Jesus told him to "keep the commandments." An evangelical pastor would cringe at someone saying that to a seeker nowadays. <br /><br />And what does it mean that a woman will be "saved in child-bearing"?<br /><br />As you said, why the ambiguity, when so much is at stake?Hacksaw Duckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08779494116778446650noreply@blogger.com