tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post8358805639391097330..comments2024-01-24T04:02:06.466-05:00Comments on Why I De-Converted from Evangelical Christianity: The Christian Delusion: Chapter Fourteen--Atheism Was Not The Cause Of The HolocaustKen Pulliamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12161943466797514854noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-18144859564495063192010-06-30T22:09:47.177-04:002010-06-30T22:09:47.177-04:00In my previous post I said:
"Where does Luthe...In my previous post I said:<br />"Where does Luther call for the physical extermination of all Jews?"<br /><br />But just to make it clearer, you can remove the "all". If that was Luther's plan, then he didn't call for the physical extermination of any Jew.<br /><br />Unless you are reading dishonesty "letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow". But it doesn't mean death camps if you read it honestly. It only means what it says. <br /><br />Neither he, nor the Catholic Church ever wanted to kill Jews as Jews.<br /><br />In fact, even the dreaded Spanish Inquisition, which was controlled by the Spanish Crown rather than the Church, didn't want to do this. Its goal was merely to separate the Jews from the Christians, and in order to do this they killed those Jews who after converting to Christianity continued to secretly practice the old religion (and if I remember correctly, only the unrepentants and recidives). The Jews who didn't convert were only expelled from Spain, and only under Isabella, and this of course was a bad thing, but not as bad as sending them indiscriminately to a death camp.<br />And of course they could avoid all this by actually converting to Christianity.<br /><br />So no matter under what angle you look at this, the Christians were never like the Nazis.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-12128392276965297802010-06-30T21:52:27.472-04:002010-06-30T21:52:27.472-04:00“There is little question that the Holocaust had i...“There is little question that the Holocaust had its origin in the centuries-long hostility felt by Christians against Jews”<br />Even if this were true, so what? It doesn't mean that Christians would have ordered the Holocaust.<br /><br />"Every single point in Luther’s plan was implemented by Nazi policy."<br />But not all single points of Nazi policy were in Luther's plan. <br />Where does Luther call for -ahem- the physical extermination of all Jews???<br />Obviously there's a world of difference between Luther and Hitler.<br />Not only Luther didn't want to exterminate the Jews, his hostility to them was based on religion, not race. In fact Luther was in good terms with certain Jews who had converted to Christianity. While you couldn't have escaped the Nazis by converting away from Judaism - if you were Jewish then it was your blood they hated, not your ideas.<br /><br />“Hitler was merely doing what the Church had done for 1,500 years”<br />The Church had in mind to physically exterminate all the Jews? Ridiculous.<br /><br />"Avalos cites a report that as of 1938, the Nazi SS was made up of 51.4% Catholic, 22.7% Protestant and 25.7% God-believers"<br /><br />It is not about the soldiers, it's about the leaders and their doctrines. Nobody can seriously deny that Nazism was essentially anti-Christian and leading Nazis were either atheists or pagans.<br /><br />"Mein Kampf reveals that Hitler’s racist attitudes came from his understanding of the Bible not from Darwin. Hitler wrote: “. . . it is one of those concerning which it is said with such terrible justice that the sins of the fathers are avenged down to the tenth generation . . . Blood sin and desecration of the race are the original sin in this world . . .” (p. 249, cited by Avalos, p. 387).<br />Where did Hitler derive this idea? From the Bible"<br /><br />I don't have the time to read that Biblical passage and understand it in context, but I don't think anyone can find a single Christian thinker past or present who defends views like that. This is evidence that those views are not Christian.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-25324455054126576222010-06-30T21:51:49.814-04:002010-06-30T21:51:49.814-04:00"if, as D’Souza seems to think, genocide is a..."if, as D’Souza seems to think, genocide is always evil, then the numbers don’t matter as much as does the principle."<br /><br />Maybe it is because I lack context but I don't see Avalos' point, again I didn't read D'Souza, but obviously the sheer number of immoral actions in a society/civilization/government system is a good indicator of the degree of morality found in said society/civilization/government system and therefore the degree of morality which the worldview of the society allows. The fact that if the individul murderer had had more power he would have committed more crimes doesn't change this, and besides the fact itself that he doesn't possess that much power is evidence that there are checks and balances to his actions which are caused by the overall morality of the society.<br /><br /><br />Besides the witch hunt example is a very bad example. The persecution of witches in Medieval Europe is very different from the Holocaust from a moral standpoint. It's not about immorality, it's about irrationalism. We could then discuss whether or not such irrationalism was caused by Christianity but this is beside the point.<br />The witches were irratonally accused of heinous crimes, such as killing cattle and destroying crops, which caused famine. Obviously those accusations were false, but the people who executed the witches believed in them. Had the witches been guilty, they would have deserved some kind of punishment. Probably it was still immoral to kill them because their alleged crimes didn't justify death penalty, but I don't see how this compares to the Holocaust or to the intentional infliction of a famine upon a geographic region under Communism.<br /><br />In which other instances "the goal of Christians in some instances was to kill all they could find of a particular group"? Well maybe Avalos is talking about the various Inquisitions, which were very immoral, but not as immoral as the Nazi death camps or the Communist starvation methods. At least the Inquisition operated according to the principle that it was better to get a sinner to repent than to kill him.<br /><br />I could go on, but I hope I made it clear that even if we just discuss degrees of immorality rather than death tolls, we can show that Christianity is not as bad as atheism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-73452496558635730352010-06-30T21:49:50.838-04:002010-06-30T21:49:50.838-04:00I'm an atheist, but I agree that Christians te...I'm an atheist, but I agree that Christians tend to be more moral than atheists, which obviously doesn't make Christianity true nor necessary (there are other systems of thoughts which if adopted would make humanity more moral) but to admit this is just a matter of intellectual honesty.<br /><br />I didn't read Avalos nor D'Souza, but if those are really Avalos’ arguments, then they are very poor and easily refutable.<br /><br />"That Christian communist system also results in the killing of a married couple (Acts 5:1-11) that reneged on their promise to surrender their property"<br /><br />Well, you can google Acts 5:1-11 and read for yourself; I don't think anybody could reasonably claim that passage justifies killing people or sending them to the gulags to be worked to death.<br /><br />"The truth is that Stalin's violence, as well as that of the Maoist regime in China and other communist governments, had much more to do with their need to harness power and control of their countries than it did with their atheism."<br /><br />I don't think anybody is arguing that Stalin and Hitler read some atheistic philosopher and said "This means we have to massacre people!" (well, Stalin did more or less that, but again it is not the point), no, the point is that those crimes wouldn't have happened if those people had been Christians, because Christians allegedly have moral scruples which atheists lack (I didn't read D'Souza but I heard him quote Dostoevski in debates: if there is no God, everything is permitted). I'm not here to prove this position, I just want to say that if you think you're answering Christian apologists by showing that there is no *direct* causal connection between atheism and crimes, then you're missing the point.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-77494598342791168422010-06-01T01:20:19.153-04:002010-06-01T01:20:19.153-04:00@Ken - OK, I guess I would've expected a "...@Ken - OK, I guess I would've expected a "former fundy" to acknowledge that Hitler's form of "Christianity" was considered to be aberrant and non-Christian by nearly all evangelical Christians of the time.<br /><br />Agreed that Hitler wasn't influenced by atheism, but Avolos doesn't assert that Hitler was influenced by Luther, either. I have Loftus's book, and I just re-read that chapter, and I see no claim of <b>influence</b>. <br /><br />Just as you might praise H.L. Mencken, or Luke at commonsenseatheism.com, despite having followed your own unique path to de-conversion; Hitler praises Luther and Wagner for having arrived at the same conclusion as he did.<br /><br />Praising a prominent atheist is not the same as crediting that atheist with "influencing" your de-conversion. Hitler praising Luther "because great minds think alike" is not the same as acquiescing that Hitler's beliefs were influenced by Luther. Hitler was far too egotistical for that (I've read Mein Kampf 3 times, as well as "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" and others). Avalos is too smart to assert any such thing.JSAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00681934865643964687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-56849879765526874192010-05-31T19:29:25.782-04:002010-05-31T19:29:25.782-04:00Joshua,
I am not saying that I deconverted becaus...Joshua,<br /><br />I am not saying that I deconverted because of Luther's antisemitism. In this post, I am simply reviewing Avalos' chapter in the book. Christian apologists often claim that atheism is responsible for far more killing than Christianity ever has and they include Hitler among the atheists. I agree with Avalos that Hitler was more influenced by Luther than he was by any atheist.Ken Pulliamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12161943466797514854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-37128059519091975962010-05-31T15:23:46.956-04:002010-05-31T15:23:46.956-04:00@Ken - No dispute from me about Luther and RCC, bu...@Ken - No dispute from me about Luther and RCC, but you claim to come from a fundamentalist background. Fundamentalism's record on the matter of Nazis and Jewish persecution is quite good. And you know that no fundamentalist of that time would refer to the RCC as being Christian, let alone "conservative" Christian.<br /><br />I'm not a fan of fundies, BTW. I'm just saying that it makes no sense for a former fundamentalist to claim that <i>"Christianity causes persecution of Jews"</i>, or say things like <i>"I left fundamentalism because the RCC persecuted Jews"</i>. You yourself come from a variety of Christianity that regarded persecution of Jews as un-Christian. This is proof that "Christianity" is not a direct cause for persecution of Jews.<br /><br />I believe that Avalos was making a different point. He was simply saying that <b>atheism</b> was not the direct cause for persecution of Jews. IMO, it's really simple-minded to blame atheism <b>or</b> Christianity for such things; as if people can't twist things to justify any action they want to take.JSAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00681934865643964687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-66621581374098593462010-05-31T04:59:05.574-04:002010-05-31T04:59:05.574-04:00Joshua,
It wasn't the German higher criticism...Joshua,<br /><br />It wasn't the German higher criticism that led to the extermination of the Jews. It was conservative Christianity as illustrated by Luther and especially the RCC. There was a long history of Christians persecuting Jews in Europe.Ken Pulliamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12161943466797514854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-13561835495452676932010-05-30T22:44:58.962-04:002010-05-30T22:44:58.962-04:00@P - Are you trying to say that those who deconver...@P - Are you trying to say that those who deconvert after seminary are the most dangerous of all?<br /><br />@Ken - I agree that one cannot blame atheism for the Nazis, but it's a bit of a stretch to blame Christianity. Christians around the world had been sounding the alarm about how perverse German theology had become in the 50 years before the war, and the fundamentalists in America were solidly against the German aberrations while simultaneously being pacifist. This topic is covered in depth in Marsden's "fundamentalism", chapter 16.JSAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00681934865643964687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-28765659848509064472010-05-30T05:04:11.282-04:002010-05-30T05:04:11.282-04:00Those who point to Hitler as a representation of a...Those who point to Hitler as a representation of atheism seem to forget that they believe in a God who could have stopped Hitlers heartbeat in a split second, but didn't. This is the same God that allowed Hitler to be born in the first place, while approximately 10-25% of all pregnancies end in spontaneous abortions(miscarriage). And how many babies die from SIDS? But baby Adolph survived all these things. As did Stalin, Pol Pot, Osama bin Laden etc. What a shame that God isn't a little more choosy in the babies he kills.kilo papahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15112057471953902453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-7751484501794264872010-05-29T05:06:55.713-04:002010-05-29T05:06:55.713-04:00Cerbaz,
I think he is still grasping at straws. I...Cerbaz,<br /><br />I think he is still grasping at straws. I don't see anyway to justify killing innocent children.Ken Pulliamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12161943466797514854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-41690396442818981072010-05-27T20:11:36.643-04:002010-05-27T20:11:36.643-04:00I know this is not on the topic of the post, howev...I know this is not on the topic of the post, however, I just read Paul Copan's latest articl called "Yahweh Wars and the Canaanites". It appears that it has come up with a different argument then before. Wondering what you think?cerbazhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05979844017918932544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-14700631868151708342010-05-27T18:36:44.760-04:002010-05-27T18:36:44.760-04:00In all fairness to Desouza: I thought his 2 chapte...In all fairness to Desouza: I thought his 2 chapters on 'suffering' where the worst 2 in the book. He has much more impressive work elsewhere.John Sfiferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00875271904363363020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-20573796062392613942010-05-27T17:55:58.585-04:002010-05-27T17:55:58.585-04:00As far as I know, Hitler never killed anyone himse...As far as I know, Hitler never killed anyone himself. He delegated. Who were those people huntin' them Jews and gays and JWs? Were they atheists? Hardly. My best friend's grandmother (who is 97 and still going strong) is a lifelong Catholic who was a proud member of the Nazi party and so was her very handsome Aryan husband. In fact, he was killed when his train was bombed by the Allies as he made his way home to see his newest child for the 1st time. It's weird to look thru her photo album and see the banners and flags, etc set up in their house with photos of Hitler.Jenniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12421153137361537970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-21469740613740262362010-05-27T12:28:05.704-04:002010-05-27T12:28:05.704-04:00By a curious coincidence, Hitler and Stalin were b...By a curious coincidence, Hitler and Stalin were both one-time church choirboys (though I think in Hitler's case it was only for one year). Stalin had an excellent singing voice, and in later years he and his closest cronies would often engage in private songfests. Among the songs they sang were hymns.<br /><br />Stalin, of course, had an excellent ecclesiastical education, as he was enrolled in a seminary for six years in preparation for the priesthood. He did well academically too, although toward the end of his enrollment he had virtually stopped attending because he was already too busy with his revolutionary activities. Needless to say, he was never ordained. He would say later that it was during his first year in the seminary that he became an atheist.Northlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00769117142960558423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-882699495059104312.post-61937190580567197542010-05-27T08:56:04.215-04:002010-05-27T08:56:04.215-04:00Yep, thas right, the death of one man is a tragedy...Yep, thas right, the death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic.chaz millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05211095136616062874noreply@blogger.com